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Talking Reefs with Anthony Calfo Anthony Calfo is a hobby author and mentor, volunteering actively to share information and experiences on aquatic science via writings, lectures and workshops.

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Old 10-05-2011   #1
Regal
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Kati/Ani discussed

Hey Anthony

Since you are so chuffed with your kati/ani would you mind giving us the low down on it. I have been trying to understand it, but the few guys explaining it isnt making it easy for me to say it's brilliant

I for one would love not to throw the amount of water down the drain my RO water is wasting so this is something I would be very interested in

Couple of basic questions

How much would the cost compare with an RO unit
I know it can be regenerated, but how effective is this and how long would those beads last doing this?
Any other cons of it would be appreciated as well
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Old 10-05-2011   #2
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Kati/Ani??? Excuse the ignorance but what is this?

Sounds like twins i would like to meet?
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Old 10-05-2011   #3
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Im sure Marco could also input on this
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Old 10-05-2011   #4
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Would love to know!!!

Its a deionizer without the RO unit and has 0 water waste.
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Old 10-05-2011   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWaterboy View Post
we have been working with ani -kati for abouty 6 months now thanks to anthony.....
however, not finacially viable to use the units........
we talking 5 to 6k for a small ani -kati unit, parts not available locally etc etc.....
calfo and i spoke about this at IMACSA as the managing director from ani -kati was wanting us (being a water purification company) to be there agents......however shipping prices aswell as other costs involved dont make sense and the end esult is not better...... 0 t.d.s is afterall 0 t.d.s
again waste water can be used for virtually anything including drinking as long as it is refrigerated.
and if one was looking at spending that kind of money......then rather convert your r.o.unit into a big unit where the waste of the firt 2 membranes feeds the 3rd membrane......
calvin, mango, a few pet stores and soon regal will all be able to tell you that the r.o / waste ratio is then reversed........

cool
Taken from this thread a few years ago
http://www.sareefkeeping.com/forum/s...light=Kati+Ani
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Old 10-05-2011   #6
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tagging along her too
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Old 10-05-2011   #7
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lol......again this pops up......
ani / cati is a product used in the states to produce de/ionised water via ion exchange and regenerating of resins.
the water passes through the anion chamber, then the cation chamber and becomes de-ionised but you need to regenerate the resins.....and in south africa due to very high chlorine and tds levels you need to do this very often
we infact where about to purchase these units and bring them into south africa as recommended by anthony and with the contacts supplied by anthony over dinner one evening here is south africa.
however alot of factors came about......apon testing and furthering the quest
A)............they are bullish expensive to purchase
B)......................with water supplied in south africa , amines will grow on the resins , fauling the water being produced or minimising lifespan of the resin between regenerations
c) expensive to buy good reliable resins to replace when needed
d) regenerations to keep resins in good shape needed to be frequent

thus as the rest of the world stayed with reverse osmosis technology and developed membrane to even better rejection ratios....so did we...........
sales around the world speak for themselves, i think r.o. units in this trade compared to ani/cati would be atleast 90 /10% with the later getting weaker.
while talking to mark vera here last here he confirmed that reverse osmosis in the states was taking over completley
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Old 11-05-2011   #8
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Hi all,
I was forced to go the Kati/ani route after moving to an area without municipal water supply. The booster pump from our borehole tank just couldn't effectively run an RO system (another story)

I bought a Kati/ani 2 (one size larger than the smallest) from a german supplier. After the shipping cost and being screwed by customs clearing agent it cost me about R3000 (about 3 years ago), but that was retail pricing.

My Tds is about 200 and I get about 600 to 700 liters from the system before I need to recharge, which I have probably done about 15 times since I bought the system. I have seen no reduction in capacity of the resins yet. I use drain cleaner grade NaOH and pool acid from hardware to recharge. Did use lab grade chemicals at first but cheap stuff just as good.

I use the carbon and prefilter of my RO unit because our water has fine sediment which clogs the fine mesh the resin units have over their intakes.

The only fault I can find with the system is that I always seem to need water when it needs recharging, but then I suppose that's also bad planning on my part.

If anyone has specific questions feel free to ask.

James
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Old 12-05-2011   #9
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hey james, nice to see you around still

You mention your tds is 200 (which is quite high), does it go down to 0 when exiting the media?

I run a commercial size RO unit and probably use about 1500L of ro a week, although my unit has allot less waste than the normally hobby ones, I still feel bad having all that waste water running down the drain.

Will the media be able to be regenerated indefinitely?
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Old 12-05-2011   #10
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cheers, all Yeah...always have been chuffed about deionization. I've had extensive personal and professional experiences with them. Its simply one of those items that make the short list of"must have" things for a fishroom.

The gist of it is that such filtration can (with the right resin) produce ultra pure water (far exceeding RO), has ZERO waste water, and next to no ongoing maintenance cost. For these reasons and more the majority of research and tech industry specialists prefer to use DI water. The process is a two column (one positive, on negative) adsorbtive media...the positive side (cation) is color changing to help indicate need for recharge. The media can be recharged indefinitely and never needs replaced. Its all simply magical.

Its not even expensive. Dealers claim they are too expensive to import but actually they are less expensive than most RO units. The problem is new dealers commonly make such small orders and want airfreight shipping which is ridiculously expensive for anything heavy. By simply requesting ocean freight service via a consolidated freight forwarder such as Kamino International...the cost of shipping can be reduced by 75% or more!

A hobby sized unit (model 1...1 litre of resin per column) runs 189 USD full retail at most. Thats less expensive that many horrifically wasteful RO units (commonly they are :1 waste rations when new...4:1 at the very best, but in either case getting worse quickly in mere months. Really a staggering amount of water must be wasted to produce some pure water with typical RO units.

The challenge is that some companies promote "mixed bed" resin chambers (with or without RO stages). These resins are most always very low grade quality. A shame too that the companies mix the cation and anion so you cant recharge them

The US dealer can ship or drop ship units, I'm sure, to y'all if you are interested. He already has product going to Africa and worldwide. Very nice chap: john@readyaquatics.com
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Old 12-05-2011   #11
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ohhh! And about James' comment that his disadvantage is that he finds he needs water after hes let the unit go a while (needing recharged); I must admit I commonly did this myself. But my solution was to daisy chain units. If I needed 2 litres of resin, I bought two model 1 units (instead of a model 2 pair). Thus, when one unit color changed and indicated it needed swapped, I'd pull it and have another unit still fully charged (thus buying me time to see i sitting on my sink for a few days to be recharged )
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Old 12-05-2011   #12
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Francois...you'd probably be fine with a model 2 pair. Presuming your water is not ridiculously hard or spiked with a really bad contaminant. With med/hard tap water here (say 300-400tds) I'm getting about 4000-6000 litres of pure water from a model 2 unit before it needs recharged.

And yes, the resins csn be recharged indefinitely; they will outlive you and I

And recharging costs mere tens of pennies. Quite literally. A bottle of drain cleaner cuasti soda/lye) for the anion chamber and muriatic acid (as for cleaning tools) for the cation: both from the hardware store, etc. $5 in these chemicals here in the states will give me 5-7 recharges minimum. Yeah...about $6 to produce 30,000 liters of pure water. And...the recharge chemicals poured together int he same bucket neutralize each other and can safely be poured down the drain.
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Old 12-05-2011   #13
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Hmmm seems like a way forward for me. I have 2 ro units running most of the time - I do however use the waste in the pool
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Old 12-05-2011   #14
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If you have a use for the waste water, I ultimately have no beef with a quality RO membrane. Especially in RSA: you have excellent quality RO units from Marco.

The trouble here in the States is the massive drinking water industry produces a ton of really cheap (price and quality) RO membranes...and they are frankly crap compared to good DI resin.

But both DI and RO benefit by the same prefiltration...and if both high quality can produce comparable water. Also price similarly. So it really is a wash so long as you can find a use for the considerable reject water from most any RO. Thats the part that really bothers me. Even the top line units (here, over $1000USD) at best yield a 1:1 ratio. Bothers me terribly that so much water is wasted, indeed.
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Old 12-05-2011   #15
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15 years back, I used to use a Bateman's portable de-ioized - looked a bit like a massive protein skimmer, just you use the out-put. Resins were expensive. Is this the same/similar thing?
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Old 12-05-2011   #16
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I dunno, mate. DI basically breaks down into two categories:1) cheap quality mixed bed crap, or 2) high quality separate bed resins.

Its really that simple...no mfg would mix the good stuff because they cant sell it cheap enough for people to keep rebuying it.

If you are looking at a single column resin...you are looking at something that isn't very good (though still may be worth using, as with resin added to carbon products such as Chemi-Pure, etc)
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Old 12-05-2011   #17
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where can this rechargable resin be bought from?
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Old 12-05-2011   #18
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anthony, do you perhaps have a pic of how this type of unit is setup?

Does it require a feedpump, pressure etc?
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Old 13-05-2011   #19
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Hi Francois,

I will be home tomorrow and will try to post pics if you want. The system is just two columns, one Cation (Kati) and one anion (Ani)

Each column has inlet and outlet.

Source water goes to Kati, Kati to Ani, then out. Connectors are just nozzles that you slip a flexible hose of appropriate diameter over.

No pressure required (in fact the units cannot handle pressure). There is a warning in german on the unit but its not in the english intructions so some guys have burst their units by clamping the supply hoses on and pressurising.

The throughput on the number 2 unit I use is 60 liters per hour. (claimed by manufacturer, have never really tested)

It will giive you 0 TDS if you stick with the recommended flow rate. I let mine through a little faster and use water at about 5 to 7 TDS. Our source water has zero nitrates and phosphates anyway so I dont care about the bit that gets through.

As I said in previous post I would recommend prefilter as the mesh keeping the resin in the columns in very fine and clogs easily. I didnt do this in the beginning and the sediment in our borehole water caused a bit of blockage in my Kati column. This still causes me problems when I recharge, because I then have very little pressure from the container of chemicals.

I use my prefilter and carbon from my old RO unit. I connected a length of airline tubing to the outlet from this and it actually fits into the Kati unit by slipping INTO the input nozzle instead of around it. At the flow rate I use there isnt enough pressure to cause it to pop out, but it does leak slightly when used like this (doesnt bother me, its in the greenhouse). This was just easier to me than finding fittings to connect the prefilter output to the larger diameter Kati input.

As for resin life, Anthony has been using his longer so hes the best authority there. There was also a thread on marine depot some years ago in which people discussed how long they have been using theirs. Should be able to find it easily enough. There was also a scan of the recharge instructions posted as far as I remember.

One inportant point here which the instructions dont emphasize strongly enough. The Ani unit should not be exposed to tap water, but only to water that has gone through the Kati Unit. Apparently certain cations will bind irreversibly to Anion resin. So when you recharge Kati you flush afterwards with tap water, but after recharging Ani, always flush with water from the recharged Kati (as per the instructions)

It is interesting to note that Anthony is getting about 10 times as much water from a number 2 unit than I am before recharging. Perhaps the manufacturer could comment on this. Anthony's units are much older than mine, perhaps the resin they use has changed since he bought his? Or perhaps there is something in my water which doesnt show up on the TDS meter, so my TDS readings may actually be higher than the measured 200?

Just my personal opinion on importing these (please note I have zero experience in this area so please tell me if I'm talking crap). It seems to me that if you're serious about bringing these in it would make sense to speak to the German manufacturer? Shipping them from Europe to the US and then back here must add to the price (two atlantic crossings, two sets of import taxes (US and SA) and three sets of profit margins (manufacturer, US supplier, and SA importer). Perhaps this is the reason for the high prices Marko mentioned?

Recharging involves diluting the acid, letting it run through the Kati Unit (45 minutes 30 run through and 15 minutes standing with acid in it. Then flush with 20 liters tap water (number 2 size unit).

Then mix the NaOH - let it run through the Ani unit - again 45 minutes total. Flush with 20 liters from the recharged Kati Unit (important)

Then you run the system as you usually would through both units until the pH of the outlet is around 7. I find this takes about another 30 liters of water.

We have in the meantime got municipal water supply, so I also use my RO system again, but I have a use for the waste water so I dont mind.

Hope all this helps

James

Last edited by jamesf; 13-05-2011 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 13-05-2011   #20
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Thanks James. This sounds like a much cheaper option than RO water if you are using many alot Also seems to produce water much quicker?
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